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The Turner Problem

I am giving Turner this year to figure it out without being too critical of him, but really just this year.

When a guy is passive it worries me more than other things because I just don't know how you fix that. I don't think the coaches can do it. It's gotta come from within and right now I don't know why he has decided to stop playing like the player he was in College.

I wonder if the reality check of the NBA has paralyzed him. He may want to do something in his head but either gets stopped (which saps his confidence) or doesn't even try because he was hasn't had much success so far as a pro to bank on.

But where is that success going to come from that gives him confidence until he starts doing something?

It's great he doesn't force things, but my god man do something.

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eddies' heady's on Dec 2 at 9:19
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Thank. you.! Maybe the venom being casted my way will subside now.

The kid doesn't take well to a role within a team where he's not the primary ball-handler. His on-court demeanor exhibits this.

My theory is along the same lines as Dannie's. He can't succeed and do the same things, get the same places on the court as he did in college so his mojo is completely shot. He's not confident in his abilities at this level for whatever reason, and the caveat is they may be legitimate reasons. He's not a man amongst boys anymore at this level.

I labeled him a backup PG and that's really all he is at this point. Rather, that's the only way he can get on the floor and give you some meaningful minutes and that's even debateable because the more he does have the ball the more you could expect his turnovers to go up. He can be a turnover machine just like he was in college.

It's gonna end up being a huge waste of a pick. They're better off trading him before he gets exposed even more. And heaven forbid they trade Andre for the sake of opening up minutes for this project of a kid.

But knowing the Sixers and their history, they will continue forcing that square peg into that round hole and try making him the shooting guard that he's not.

A backup PG with the 2nd draft pick? I've got to giggle just so I won't cry.

"Thank. you.! Maybe the venom being casted my way will subside now."

I don't think anybody disagrees with what Brian is saying, so it doesn't change the reaction towards you, as that's not what's getting fans upset.

it's this: "I labeled him a backup PG", and "It's gonna end up being a huge waste of a pick", and "A backup PG with the 2nd draft pick? I've got to giggle just so I won't cry"

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Dec 2 at 10:01
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Truth hurts sometimes, I know.

Opinion.

And it's more the way you present your opinion.

People who look to say "I told you so" at every opportunity are among the most annoying internet posters possible.

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Dec 3 at 0:12
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Tone down the hyperbole. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, does it say anywhere in that comment 'I told you so'. It's nothing but merely my opinion on the guy and what I think he is at this point and probably for the forseeable future. Again, your interpretation of what is said by me is spun and takes on a personal angle for unknown reasons. You respond as if I was commenting DIRECTLY to you, when I'm not. That's taking it personal, no matter how you slice it.

You keep using the plural term of "fans", when actually the only one with a problem with my opinion is singular with that being you. You don't respect other people's views that counter yours because of whatever silly reason, presumably your hobby, so stop trying to deflect it and blame it on the 'delivery' of the opinion.

It's becoming humorous how you become upset, and irritated, and annoyed, and antagonized all because of a differing opinion of a player. That's your issue, not mine.

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Dec 2 at 10:15
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So let me get this straight - I harbor an opinion about a player on MY favorite team and you're UPSET by it? Why? For what? Cause it disagrees with your rosy outlook for the same player? And my outlook is a bit murky? Get over it already. It's borderline childish. Getting upset over differing opinions/comments on players? Stop being so affected by the perceived persona that comes along with the moniker. Really....

Because, it's stupid. He's not that bad, and Mr. Bodner, an expert in this field (player scouting), understandably gets annoyed when people veer so wildly from what he thinks is the correct assessment. It's like how I, a law student, cringe almost every time I hear some non-lawyer saying something silly about the law.

Law student huh? A lot becomes clear.

I appreciate Derek's opinion, I respect Derek's opinion about players more than anyone else on any of the blogs I read (even though he keeps banning me in places :) ). He has a track record to build upon, which is why I respect his opinion. Others without a track record not so much :)

Part of the turner 'problem' is lou williams, part of it is the fact that doug collins seems to be coaching thinking over all record is more important than player development (stop it with nocioni already, PLEASE), and I still think part of it is that the expectations were WILDLY high for turner and the team and when the pendulum swings from one extreme the momentum of that pendulum takes it far to the other way...it won't be until the pendulum actually settles that most probably will realize that they had too high (or too low) expectations for the first season of a guy who didn't dominate his first season of college either

I have no problems with a different opinion. I'm more than willing to admit that I can be wrong, on any player, and any prospect. I've been wrong in the past and I will most definitely be wrong in the future. I have no problem accepting that I could have been wrong on my projection of Turner. I'm not there ready to admit that I was wrong yet, I'm a lot less reactionary than most, but I'm not saying "Turner will definitely be a 22 ppg guy", either.

What I have a problem with is everyone needing to be right or wrong. The internet fosters a "look at me, I was right!" mentality, and that mentality drives me nuts. It's not Eddie having a different opinion on Turner's end result that bothers me, it's the fact that every one of his posts tends to turn into "Look, I predicted this, it's true!" (even though it's too early to make that proclamation). "Backup point guard, I was right! Should have listened to me!"

It's more the way he presents his opinion than the opinion he has. Personally, I have no problem ignoring the posts of his I disagree with, but by the same token I understand why it rubs people the wrong way.

I agree with you and I know you have no problem admitting you were wrong (but your lack of comment on my rotation data does make me sad by the way :), but the internet (I don't believe) created the 'look at me I was right' thing. That is an inherent insecurity in a person that the internet gives outlet to, just like how on certain discussion boards (yeah you pp) people can act like juvenile morons calling people out in fights like they never would in life.

The internet makes it easy for people to do stuff they'd NEVER do or say in real life because of the anonymity.

I try to not say anything online I wouldn't say in person to a person (yes, if i think you're (generic you) a moron in real life, I'll tell you)

I have no problem ignoring your posts that I disagree with. I'm not "hurt" by anything. I'm saying why your constant "I told you so" is irritating to many.

it's not a difference of opinion that people respond to you the way they do.

Yeah

If derek wanted to rub things in he could mock me mercilessly for that awful trade I made last week that seemed like a good idea at the time :)

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deeznutz on Dec 2 at 9:46
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its too early to write him off entirely, but something has to change.

the sixers suck. they do. they have for some time and will for some time. we hope they are on the upswing. hope. i think its affecting everybodys attitude, and im not surprised that a rook is tentative in the face of the losing. that could be indicative of a lack of leadership on this team.

maybe being on a suck team is causing et to question his role. whatever it is, we all can see that he needs to be more aggressive.

i like the kid. the kidet. solid all around skills, good attitude. he needs a kick in the ass, but i am not discouraged.

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 9:52
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Story: Struggling Turner could be headed back to bench:

http://ow.ly/3iMZ9

Quotes are from Turner after Tuesday's game. He didn't talk Wednesday, but said he would after today's practice.

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 9:59
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Blog: Turner: 'I've got to roll with the punches'

http://ow.ly/3iNZS

Brian, good summary of the issues regarding Turner. I'm not sure giving him isolations on the second team is the answer, because he doesn't consistently blow by people or dish off well on penetration. I do think if he gets a step on his defender, he's pretty effective in getting off a good shot. So, pick-and-roll or run through screens to catch the ball going to the hoop (a little like they do for Iguodala).

I do think Collins will find a way to get good shots for Turner and was heartened by watching the video posted by Tom Moore (linked in your sidebar). If you think about it, one of Collins' best achievements this year is to make Brand a plus contributor on offense. Remember last year when Brand would get the ball 20+ feet from the hoop all the time?

I'm glad that Collins himself noticed that Turner's rebounding has fallen off. Even if the offense doesn't come right away, Turner can make a positive contribution by grabbing more than his share of defensive rebounds (where he excels when motivated), playing decent defense (though he is below-average right now because he fouls too much), getting a few steals, and filling the lane on fastbreaks (or leading the break himself) -- similar to what Iguodala did as a rookie in 04-05. Some people may not want Turner to emulate 04-05 Iguodala, but remember that Iguodala was valuable enough that he started every game as a rookie (and deserved it). I think if Turner plays consistently in the rest of his game, he'll get consistent minutes and then have a greater chance to contribute on offense.

I have a trade proposal. Please don't kill me for this suggestion. I think it works financially(after next year), provides a posible top 10 pick in 2012 and fills a need in the middle for us.

Andre Iguodala to the CLippers for the following:
Chris Kaman(paid through next year - 2 years less then AI9) and Minnesota's #1(Owned by the Clips which is top ten protected this year with no protection after that)

Appreciate your feedback.

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Joe reply to sfw on Dec 2 at 10:23
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Horrible.

Kaman isn't even an upgrade from Spencer Hawes based on his play this year. Iguodala is a great player.

In addition, last year Kaman wasn't an upgrade from Speights.

It is really just a flat out terrible, terrible trade idea.

Whether you think trading him is a good idea or not, you have to realize they aren't going to get equal value in terms of on-the-court production. It's just not going to happen. If that's the key factor for you, there's no way you're going to be happy w/ an Iguodala trade, and maybe you shouldn't be.

As far as trading Iguodala to further the franchise in some other way (cap space, picks, young players), this one isn't terrible. I'd kind of hate to have to watch Kaman for the next two years, but that Minny pick could be huge.

Right. Minny won't be drafting out of the top 10 this year, so you're basically looking at an unprotected 2012 pick from minnesota. That's the kind of trade I could get behind.

Aside from saying "please don't kill me for this suggestion," there's nothing wrong with the offer. The pick could be a tremendous asset, assuming Minny remains pitiful for at least one more season. I don't like Kaman at all, but this isn't the worst AI9 proposal I've seen by any means.

Making the deal might guarantee three top-ten picks over the next two seasons for the Sixers.

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sfw reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 10:46
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I think Kaman will just get in Griffin's way when he returns from his ankle issue. Griffin needs a 2nd banana. The Clippers have constant pressure to win being in LA and they have a servicable backup center to fill in. So, from a Clippers perspective I think it works.

As you said, we get that draft pick, another big and big time cap space after next year.

he Clippers have constant pressure to win being in LA

No, they don't. No one cares about the Clippers winning or losing in LA. LA belongs to the Lakers, and always will. The Clippers have consistent pressure to turn a profit, cause that's what ownership cares about. The Clippers took a shot many years ago but Kobe decided to go back with the Lakers, and that was it.

(Griffin also has a second banana already by the way)

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Rich reply to sfw on Dec 2 at 10:51
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If you are the Clips, I think you do that in a heartbeat. Iggy wouldn't even need to score like a 2nd banana on that team, Gordon does that. That team would actually be a perfect fit. The most physical 2-3-4 combo in the league.

Most reports are that the clippers primary motivation right now is finding someone (ANYONE) to take baron davis.

I don't believe Kaman gets in griffins way, griffin isn't a low post player, he's a pick and roll dunker

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 10:57
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I don't disagree with any of that. I just think that they would benefit by getting Iguodala, and that Kaman isn't a huge loss. If they could get rid of Baron, I'm sure they will. It's gonna be hard though.

Turner has been way too passive. I still think he could get his shot whenever he wants it in an iso situation. He's just got to want to score. When he puts those misdirection head fakes, side dribbles, step backs (D Wade), he looks like he could do this stuff whenever he wants. He's an interesting case, because his craftiness isn't used even in small doses because he's too passive. Once he gets comfortable, which again I have no idea why he's not, he has the tools to score the ball.

His defense and rebounding have shown me that even if he's a 10 PPG scorer, he's a solid contributor and a starter. He's made rookie mistakes like fouling three point shooters, and not completely rotating, but he has the tools there. Those will be corrected/ His defensive mindset is excellent (very aggressive), getting is LeBron's chest 25 feet away from the hoop is an example. Now he just has to bring it over to offense. Again, the last week and half has been frustrating with him, but everyone have some patience.

How about the last Washington game when he tried to win it all in the 4th quarter? He got to the free throw line a couple times (missing two big ones at the end but also making 4 big ones before that)and also taking the shot as time expired in regulation.

Does this game correlate with his degression?

Most teams in the NBA would benefit from getting Iguodala, that's a pretty easy thing to say.

When trading Iguodala, I really don't GIVE a shit what the impact is on the other team, I only care about the Assets back and the constantly spun 'kaman for iguodala' trade is garbage for the sixers short and long term. If that's the best deal available, keep Iguodala because kaman is in the wrong portion of his career arc, injury prone, and useless on a team that's primary asset is its athleticism.

I really don't care how good a trade is for the other team, yes the clippers are better with Iguodala than their injury prone slow plodding center...so what, the sixers still get crap back

There are better 'made up' trades than Kaman for Iguodala. Kaman for Iguodala is ridiculous and if that's the best deal offered for Iguodala, you don't make it (and no you aren't also going to get a top 5 pick to go with it, the clippers are taking on the longer contract)

Without the pick, it's idiotic. And there's no need to attack someone for saying the Clippers would probably do it.

Wasn't meant as a specific attack on anyone just meant to be like 'duh of course the clippers would do it', it's not a question of whether or not the clippers would trade kaman for iguodala straight up.

The trade machine is one of the worst inventions on the web until somone builds an algorithm that prevent 'ridiculous' salary working trades.

It's not like Kaman for Iguodala is a new idea either...:)

Sorry, just upset that the US got screwed over so that the world cup could be in another country that thinks women are chattel

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Rich reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 11:16
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I'm at the point where I want Iguodala to find a good landing spot. Of course the Sixers should take whatever the best deal is (if there's a deal to be made), but the Clips would be a nice spot for him on paper. Things working out like they do on paper is not what they are known for.

Iguodala is my favorite sixer and has been since the moment was drafted.

That being said, I don't care where he lands. Once he's not a sixer, whatever team he is on is irrelevant to me. What matters is how moving Iguodala improves the sixers to contend for a championship in the future. Kaman for Iguodala does nothing (in my opinion) but 'fill' one current hole while creating another, but with a lesser player at a different position (and there's no way you get that minnesota pick...in Clipperland picks are gold, that's how they fielld the most inexpensive team they can). All that matters to me in an Iguodala trade is the assets the sixers get back. I would think any fan of the sixers would care more about what they get back than where Iguodala lands. I don't care if the best deal involves transferring him to CSKA Moscow (yes I know it's not possible). You make the best deal for your franchise.

(And yes, if New Jersey for some idiotic reason says give us Iguodala and we'll give you Favors, you make that deal, who cares if they're in your division, it's the best deal, by far, probably)

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sfw reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 11:44
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It takes at least 2 teams to tango. As Brian said this trade would not be made without the Minny pick. Saving 2 years off Iggy's deal is another selling point for the Sixers. Your point that draft picks are essential to how the Clippers run their franchise is a good one and could prevent this trade from occurring from their standpoint.

Evan Turners college progression

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=36135

I don't think there's Turner problem yet, I think as always there's a problem of unrealistic expectations (where are all the 'sixers going to make the playoffs cause they got a real coach - they'll be 500 even' folks by the way) of the sixers, of Turner, of the impact of Doug Collins, of the second year progression of Jrue Holiday.

You think a lesson would have been learned just looking at the career arc of Thaddeus Young

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 11:40
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It's not too unreasonable to expect, I don't know, 10 points a game with all the minutes he's getting, 43% shooting. People picked as high as he was, and who are as old as he is - he's not some freak athlete picked out of high school or a freshman plucked from a UNC bench, he was the player of the year - tend to pick up the pro game a whole lot faster. Like take Wesley Johnson, his overall stats aren't a whole lot better than Turner's, but he hasn't fallen completely off the map like Turner has the past five or so games. And Johnson wasn't supposed to be anywhere near the player.

Johnson was projected to be one of the quicker contributors in the draft class, both because of his age and because the style of game he plays meshes into an offense better and is easily adaptable to his situation.

Turner is playing on a crap team with no expectations (or pressure) - Darko Is putting up good numbers on the wolves - is Darko a good player now?

Regardless of age, I think the more comparable on court comparison for Turner in terms of #2 picks is Beasley, I don't expect it to require a new team but I think the situation is more similar than the situation a Johnson went in to.

I have more faith in the long term future of Evan Turner as a basketball player than any of the athletes exploding this year because teams haven't scouted them yet (ala Thaddeus Young)

I think Evan Turner is a better inherent basketball player and that just needs time to gain the confidence in himself that it takes whenever you start a new job...

Hey Derek

Completely unrelated, but you're the only one I know with experience (I think) doing something like this.

can you point me in the right direction about how to parse XML data into MySQL databases? Do I need programming or could I try and do it with AJAX and PHP looping?

Yeah, there's some pretty good xml libraries for php. I'll shoot you an email.

Thanks

Just learned about AJAX spanning XML in my javascript class and figured I could do something merging the ajax with the php but hoped there was a more direct thing :)

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Steve v on Dec 2 at 12:27
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http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine# I'm not an advocate for trading iguodala this is a trade I'd do and think the other two would consider with a pick going to den from nj as well.

Link doesn't work. You need to click "save trade" then copy the link they create.

Unfortunately, that link isn't going to go to the trade you created, do you have the terms?

PS

Today's hoopshype rumors page has 'sources' that claim there's no way Carmelo Signs an extension with New Jersey since the Brooklyn move is too far way.

If he won't sign an extension with New Jersey that kills the Denver/New Jersey scenarios. Jersey won't do it without the extension and Denver won't do it without Favors who they don't get without the extension.

If Carmelo isn't agreeing to an extension with the team he goes to that depresses his trade value (obviously) I believe

I think his trade value is dropping by the minute. The only way Denver gets a decent deal is if the Magic or Clippers enter the fray. Otherwise, they're going to have to work something out with New York or accept pennies on the dollar to send him to a team in a rental situation.

I believe the law of diminishing returns will lead to him not being traded anywhere unless New York can obtain more assets. Denver doesn't really have any bad contracts they can package with Anthony can they? If he isn't signing an extension, keep him for the season purely to field a better team and make more attendance/playoff money is my belief.

the bird man has a long contract, not sure if it's really bad.

Harrington and Andersen are the only players on deals past the end of next season (Anthony and Nene have opt outs this year, the chauncey is a team option) that aren't on rookie deals. Both Harrington and Andersen are on MLE deals.

IF Denver is going to blow it up and trade Carmelo and Chauncey it would make sense to go whole hog and get rid of the MLE's as well if they can find takers.

I don't agree with taking Turner out of the starting lineup. I thought the idea for this season was to get Jrue and him as many reps together as possible. So instead Collins should stick Turner back on the second unit with a guy who doesn't pass the ball? I think it's on the coach to tell Turner to drive to the basket more, run a couple plays for him, and let him know that if he commits one or two turnovers because of his aggressiveness then he is NOT going to immediately get benched. And if for some reason Turner still refuses to be more assertive, then you bench him and let him know why.

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 13:09
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Video: Turner on possibly becoming a backup guard, trying to be more assertive on the court:

http://ow.ly/3iXpO

Tom,

These videos are tremendous, by the way. Great job.

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 13:33
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Thanks a lot. Appreciate it, Brian.

Easier for me to transcribe, too, from video than audio recorder.

How many problems does Louis Williams actually cause for the sixers...i don't suppose new orleans wants him?

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 13:34
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Video: Collins on being in Turner's corner, says lineup change 'wouldn't be a demotion'

http://ow.ly/3iYma

Collins always says the right things, doesn't he? Hopefully he's as supportive of his players behind the scenes as he is in public. (This was one of Mo Cheeks' strong suits as a coach, supporting his players, and it's probably no coincidence that Collins and Cheeks played together for the first few years of Cheeks' career.)

Wasn't it by around this time last year that Eddie Jordan had trashed both Iguodala and Brand in public?

His actions don't always reflect what he says - so we'll see what happens

4-6 weeks for Joe Johnson, huh? That blows for them, good for us.

Why is it good for the sixers?

Because they're playing the Hawks tomorrow night.

Ah so more wins is good then is it?

You'll know it if I start rooting for losses. It's going to be a while, if it happens at all this season.

I don't exactly root for losses per se - I just don't see how another low lottery / first round whooping helps the long term development of this team (plus the whole dalembert extension looms over thad if they make the playoffs)

It's a personal preference thing. I'm just nowhere near the point where I'm going to be sad about wins, happy about losses.

Oh, I'm neither happy nor sad, but I've said for the past two seasons that the record doesn't matter to me as much as the development of players who are going to matter when this team does (if it does) start contending again.

It's why I hate Nocioni minutes, they get in the way

I don't have a problem with minutes for Nocioni if he's playing well. I have a big problem when he's not playing well and he's out there simply because he's a tough veteran. We haven't seen much of the latter recently, though. He's only been playing when he's been contributing.

Just a housekeeping thing, but I added the latest comment and the comment count to the Sixers Draft Index in the sidebar. Should be easier to tell what's going on over there now.

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 15:08
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Can anyone guess the only two Sixers players shooting around 45 minutes after practice ended today?

Will give the answer in a few minutes.

Jrue and Iguodala?

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 15:15
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Half right, Brian.

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Tom Moore reply to Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 15:16
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Was Turner working with Curry and Iguodala shooting free throws.

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 15:09
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One was doing shooting drills with associate head coach Michael Curry, while the other was practicing free throws.

Iguodala at the line and Speights working with Curry?

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 15:17
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Unfortunately, Speights' work ethic seems to rival that of Dalembert's -- he almost never stays after.

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Tom Moore reply to Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 15:18
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Turner worked with Curry and Iguodala shot free throws.

I'm glad Iguodala was working on his foul shot, he's in the low 60's from the stripe. That's unacceptable.

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Court_visioN reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 15:21
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Iguodala probably knows that too. Good to see him work on his FTs. Less taxing on his legs (compared to, say, if he were shooting jumpers) but still something he needs to improve.

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Tom Moore reply to Court_visioN on Dec 2 at 15:35
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Agree with you both.

Turner was working on getting the ball at the 3-point line and driving to the bucket.

Must say, Iguodala does stay after quite a bit. Williams and Speights typically do not. Williams was around a little later than usual today, but that was only because he was trying to get all of the other players to promise to give him their two comp tickets for Friday's game in his hometown, Atlanta.

If a player stays late to work on a flawed shooting motion, he still has a flawed shooting motion.

Iguodalas shooting motion needs to be rebuilt from the ground up probably and that's an off season thing.

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sfw reply to Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 16:12
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Lou has to go to open up time for others. Gotta find a trade partner for him. It would help if he became more consistant offensively. Let's not talk about his defense.

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Jewness on Dec 2 at 15:13
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I’d trade jrue holliday for jason thompson and 1st draft pick then trade iggy and hawes to golden state for stephen curry, radmanovic and Ekpe Udoh……..http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29ukvg7 kinda like that……Im a fan of jrue its just that having curry and thompson will open the floor up more for ET and stop the gaping hole we have a center and having udoh will help our overall defense and some cap relief with radmonic.I think its works out for all sides.Sac wants a PG….We get somebody who isnt really a pg but a outside threat to open the for ET……A Big and help for the future with a first….defense and cap relief….Golden State gets a player who is one of the best defender in the Nba and a great compliment to Ellis and some help with there center position

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Jewness reply to Jewness on Dec 2 at 15:33
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Well I guess thats jsut a no but a hell no well maybe this a lil better......http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=28k8koy.......hey Brian what do you think

Iguodala and Jrue for Curry and Udoh? No way. Not even close.

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 15:45
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True. Giving up too much.

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Jewness reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 17:22
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of course you wouldnt just accept just those two it would have to include a draft pick to two. A lineup of
1.stephen curry
2.evan Turner
3. Andres Nocioni
4.Elton Brand
5. Mauresse Speights(I know I'm going to catch hell for this one but I have my reasons)

Trade Brand in the offseason for a can of paint and some straws or we can keep him and let Perry Jones (i feel we have to draft him) between the 3 and 4. and draft a Center there are a couple good ones out there or just keep brand and draft a center

Whatever the sixers 'have' to do - planning an off season based on a draft pick that will be mostly based on luck and who knows where picks end up and then assuming someone will trade for Elton Brand without requiring the sixers to take back an equally bad contract while saying speights should ever start is off to me.

Also, your screen name kind of bothers me

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Jewness reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 17:59
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Speights plays better than hawes.........now that i think keep brand and draft a 3 and 5 with a certain skills


my screename is for my hertitage but I got that ness

Brian plays better than Hawes, and if you have a top 5 pick you draft the best player available only worrying about need if two players are equal. Hopefully the sixers will be in that position this year.

I don't agree with your trade because your trading two high quality guys and only getting one back.

If you got curry and KEPT holiday, then we'd be talking with gas

(I too am jewish by the way - still don't like the name)

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 15:37
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Collins, when I said Turner seems more comfortable as the backup point guard: "Yes. If I were to make that move, this has nothing to do with a demotion. That’s what I talked to Evan (about). I’m trying to look for the way for him to play his best. Right now, he’s more comfortable with the ball in his hands. That’s what he’s always done.

"When you’re a scoring guard, as I was, when the rebound goes up and your team secures it, you’re sprinting the floor for a layup. As a point guard, you’re coming back for the ball. Evan’s tendencies are to come back and want to get the ball. Well, with Jrue and Dre he’s got to run the lane. That’s a new experience for him right now. We’re trying to work on that."

Please please ask him how Evan can be a back up oint guard when Lou Williams seems to think the ball belongs to him

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Dec 2 at 17:38
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Yeah, well maybe when the two were in the game the coach would tell Turner to bring up the ball and that would be the end of that. I mean, I'm assuming that Lou's playing the point is a choice the coach is making, not a decision Lou's making on his own.

If Lou gets the ball in his hands during an offensive set - he ain't giving it up until the shot clock is under 5 - so does collins instruct everyone to keep it away from lou?

Seems to be a bad coaching philosophy

Put a pass clock on Lou in the half court. He's got three seconds to make a shoot/pass decision if there is more than 8 seconds left on the clock. Less than 8, he's got the green light to do whatever he wants.

And if he doesn't pass it a shock collar gets activated, right?

Professional sports needs more shock collars

I prefer the Willie Mays Hayes treatment. 20 pushups out on the court.

Unfortunately I see the Turner situation as pretty simple. Evan Turner is not a good NBA basketball player right now. Hopefully, with experience and work that changes, but as of now he is unable to do much on the floor- and its nobody's fault, not even Turner's.

IMO Turner is not shooting much because he realizes he can't generate good shots. He takes open jumpers and works the post some. But when he drives he rarely scores, and when he tries a pull up jumper his percentages are bad. So he is deferring to more effective options on the floor. And if he forced the action more it will result in a lot of missed shots and TO's.

Basically, the moves that generated easy looks in college are not working for him. But he has decent length, quickness and ball-handling and works on his game. So I hope/expect that with time he'll be able to generate better looks and become a more effective player. IMO when he learns to get open looks then he'll start shooting more, because he is not a timid player by nature.

But for now, Turner is a bad offensive player who is minimizing his negatives by not forcing things. And as the team forces him to produce more we might end up seeing some extremely ugly basketball. Instead, they need to be focusing on teaching him how to translate his skills to where he can generate better looks within the offense. because the moves he's trying don't fly against NBA level defenders.

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Dec 2 at 16:23
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Let me add that Turner is responsible for his drop in rebounding. But that will bounce back to some degree if he re-dedicates himself. But I don't expect him to be a career 7 reb per game or 20+ def reb% player- although it would be great if I was wrong. Wither way he should be a plus rebounder as a SG.

I do not think moving him to SF is a good idea. if anything that will water down his strengths and makes his weaknesses more glaring.

I was on board with this line of thinking early on, but I don't think it's true. He can get to the spots he needs to with his dribble. He's done it in the limited times he's actually tried so far this season. The poor shooting has mostly been due to rushed jumpers and the failure to be decisive when he gets the ball.

To me, it's a confidence thing. When he hits a shot, you can see him expand his game. When he misses, he shrinks. I guess maybe he needs to have more faith that his coach and teammates can live with some missed shots, because the confidence is never going to develop if he's afraid to shoot.

Nothing I've seen so far tells me he's incapable of doing anything at this level. Maybe he is, but I haven't seen him try enough to make any judgments about his strengths/weaknesses.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Dec 2 at 16:49
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I agree that confidence greatly effects his jumper (and anyones.) And he has generated some clean looks. But not nearly as clean as at OSU, where he was really shaking people or just shooting over them. So its a combination, but I'd say confidence is the lesser factor.

I think he really is being effected by longer defenders. Especially when he gets past his man and in the lane. No only does it make finishing tougher, but his passes are being deflected.

Again, I think he is talented enough to overcome these issue. But its more than just attacking more or having a better attitude. he needs to learn a whole new set of pet moves that will be effective at the NBA level. For heady players like Turner it is a bigger adjustment than for guys who are pure shooters or finish above the rim.

I'd expect his learning curve might mimic a similar style player- like Salmons. Not saying Turner can't be a much better player in the end- but they both are "skill" guards who started off looking a bit lost because their initial moves fell short.

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Tom Moore on Dec 2 at 16:28
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Turner on his rebounding dropoff: "Sometimes the ball doesn't bounce your way."


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